General Comments: The first requirement for a scientific explanation is that it be non-theological in character.

So there is a striking difference between the understanding of the natural events of Amos and those of Herodotus. While both try to deal with unusual natural events, the former connects the event to the human behavior and a divine being. The latter makes no mention / allusion to the role of the gods, indeed he dismisses priestly [aka 'establishment knowledge;] as irrelevant to his inquiry and assumes that there must be a 'natural' explanation. Note that Herodotus begins by examining an 'effect' and then works back to possible causes; Amos begins with the notion that there is a divine cause.

On Greek medicine...note that there is no theological basis for understanding the disease, so it is on the way to a scientific explanation. But is there an explanation? Here the author is very careful to record all the data, but he leaves it to the reader to make the connection between living in dense quarters (the gymnasium), the progress of the disease, and the complications. There is an implicit assumption, which suggests the appropriate scientific caution. Is there a testable hypothesis here? Implicit in the account is that the collection of data can produce understanding / knowledge, that that might be useful at least in predicting the progress of the disease.

The omen literature. What is the difference between the omen literature and the Hippocratic material? It is subtle but important

 

Criteria for identifying a scientific explanation...and we will see more.

  1. Close observation of nature...necessary or sufficient condition?

  2. Non theological; explanations involve natural forces only.

  3. Connection between cause and effect needs to be testable?

  4. Self conscious reflection on method ==> testable; verifiable by others.


Group : Truman, Devon , Kevin, Dylan

The passages regarding Omens make the assumption that nature is the tool that gods use to punish mankind. These documents can be classified as science because they attempted to explain the inexplicable events that had great effect on the lives of the early humans. These documents are based on the observation of repeated occurences and attempt to draw parallels between monumental events and the actions of humans. This cannot be considered science in the way that we know it now because the authors of these documents did not form theories and constructs or test hypotheses or models. The fact that the authors of these documents even made these assumptions indicates that they are believers in the post hoc, ergo propter hoc theory - they assumed that, because because a man who had committed adultery also happened to be sick in the middle of the night, that the adultery was the cause of the illness.

In Herodotus's writings, the assumption is that nature is not exclusively under the power of the gods, but that there are elements of randomocity and chance involved. Herodotus's document is closer to the science we know today as he forms a hypothesis and tries through observation to prove it (he cites the sun's effects on the natives of Libya and that area's water supply, and calls on the previous actions of the Nile in relation to other events such as the Etisian wind). While the writings on Omens accept the post hoc, ergo propter hoc theory, Herodotus attempts to disprove it by showing that events in nature are unconnected.

Good explanations.  May want to include more about what you mean by “science that we know today” in making your comparisons.


Group : Logan, Emily, Jen, Matt

In the Amos passage, the assumption is that we are being punished for turning away from the path of God. It is also being assumed that all of these different events are coming from one stimulus. It cannot be classified as science because it is a hypothesis that covers everything that happens and doesn't take into account any inconsistencies. No one ever tested the hypothesis and so it is unlikely that this explanation can prove that God is the stimulus for all of these events. GOOD.

The Hippocratic School passage assumes that one's diseases can be predicted by the color and consistency of their urine. It can be considered as a scientific document because it shows specific evidence related to the problem. Based on the text, it is clear that there were observations made and then a conclusion was derived. The information that is given has the ability to be a testable hypothesis, unlike the Amos passage. Testable being the key word here.


Group : Celia and Ben

Which documents are you covering? Sounds like Amos, but please specify.

1) When humans do something that displeases the Gods, they are punnished. Also, certain events in nature predict the occurence of events in humans lives. Therefore, nature has a direct correlation to human behaviors and provides a way for humans to structure their lives, which lends them a certain amount of security.  Good.

2) There isn't any basis for science in this document. No scientific method is used and no inquiry into why these events happen on a natural level are pursued. People have to believe that a pattern exists which will cause these things to happen again in the future. It's based heavily in faith.

3 and 4) There is observation that these events occur and then people believe that they are accurate and will occur again in the future. No formal systematic testing of events takes place. The idea is that if people keep practicing these rituals and observing events as important for a particular occurence, then the event will occur and the Gods will be pleased. It reduces their fear out of the lack of control when the rituals they perform keep them in good graces.

Good job!


Group : Aaron Morris, Stephanie Oakes, Travis Pratt

1. Amos: Nature is a tool of god. Good. Used as divine intervention. Also, that natural "disasters" like lack of rainfall, continue to happen until the proper omens Not sure if this is exactly the idea you were looking for. are given to the God(s).

 

Hippocratic School: No assumptions made about nature, only observations of natural processes. This document only observes different types of urine and gives an semi-rational explanation to best describe the difference in urine.

2. Amos: There isn't much in this document that can be considered as scientfic, rather that nature is controlled by a God, or Gods, and the wrath of which can be seen through nature.  But don’t people influence the actions of the Gods?

Hippocratic School: This document doesn't present much evidence towards its observations, but this document simply makes observations without any real evidence besi,des that people are sick or healthy judging by their urine.

3. Amos: this document simply goes into the theory, or model, that natural events are simply divine intervention. Also, not only is nature controlled but also controls events that happen in society like overthrowing a ruler.

Hippocratic School: the role of observation plays a vital role in this document, that is all this document is. This document shows no signs of testing a hypothesis, just makes claims and observations related to differences in urine.

Feel free not to be stuck only writing question by question, bullet point by bullet point—those are only guidelines for what to talk about.  Try to discuss each topic thoroughly other than splitting it up.  You cover a lot of good points to justify your decision one way or the other, but never really come to a conclusion as to whether or not these documents are “scientific.” 


Group : Bryce, Jake

Herodotus -

While Herodotus does write with scientific premise, his method and logic follow only a loose definition of science.  Good, but explain more. 

1. Assumptions: The sun holds some power over the Nile River, allowing it to attract the water, and therefore allow it to rise.

2. He attempts to describe the phenomenon through explainable causes and available evidence. He follows the guidelines of relying on a cause-effect relationship on every occasion, and not only paying attention to the successes. However, he acts upon an unproven premise, that the sun attracts water.

He relies on cause and effect through observing the absence of water in Lybia, to further support his hypothesis. While he does use observation and logic, he uses these in place of actual tests of his theory.

The main problem wih his processes is that he relies on an unproven assumption. Otherwise, he seems to rely on logic and cause enad effect to support his ideas.

How would you then explain the idea that Herodotus refers to the sun as some sort of deity? 


Group : Chris Borrelle, Vanessa Sin, George Johnson

The ultimate message that Omens is attempting to get across about the role of nature is that it has either a negative or positive effect on humanity, time, or another part of nature. Thus nature is omnipotent. However, the assumptions made in Omens were made without any logical process. On the other hand, Herodotus takes the more scientific approach or process to observing nature in that he wants to find cause and effect. Again Omens excludes any scientific process and relies solely on observation. But does Omens not resort to cause and effect?  Human actions lead to natural phenomenon. Therefore to classify it as scientific would be less accurate than classifying Herodotus as scientific. Herodotus takes the more experimental approach. While he does take a scientific approach, does that necessarily make it science?

Overall, Omens takes a bunch of events and judges them based on the outcome. While Herodotus leaves more rookm for scientific interpretation: "I regard as the sole cause of the phenomenon".

Things that happen right after another are related sometimes and sometimes are not related. If you do something for something to happen then it is. If you do not do something for something to happen that you have no cause for what just happened.  ???


Group : Claire Wagner, Emily Castillo, Analesa Zimmerman

-The document written by Amos is clearly unscientific because there is a clear connection between the natural and the supernatural. According to the text, God states that he is responsible for the sending or witholding of the rains or the cleanness of teeth or the waste of gardens. The document also implies that the failure of the humans to "return" to God caused him to respond with natural punishment, such as rain. Or the withholding of rain… This assumption that natural events were sent from the supernatural realm as responses to human behavior eliminates the need for investigation or the scientific method, and classifies this document as unscientific.  Good summary of Amos… Would you consider cause and effect relationships as a scientific process.

-The excerpt from the Hippocratic School appears to be a scientific document. There is a disconnect between human or natural phenomena and the realm of supernatural. The author states that discoloration or changes in texture of urine are symptomatic of internal disease. By naming disease as the cause of these symptoms rather than God. the author is denying divine intervention and employing scientific reason. Because the author describes the symptoms and their relation to disease in an ordered manner, absent of divine interferance, the document can be classified as scientific.  So anything that does not involve divine intervention can be considered scientific?

BONUS Question - We believe the bonus excerpt is unscientific because the scientific method cannot be applied, as the events cannot be duplicated or tested. Horoscopes, as this appears to be, are held to the same standard of accuracy as the early polytheistic beliefs (they need only be correct or close a few times before people read them religiously). As horoscopes cannot be tested or quantified, they cannot be classified as scientific. Good in bringing in the concept of duplicating experiments and restesting ideas.

Overall pretty good, but you need to provide a better understanding of what “science” is.


Group : Corie Townsend, Theresa Galvan, Stuart Carlberg, and Ross Hiatt

1. Nature is predictable; they follow the logical fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc; things happen for a reason. Good.

2. They are exploring cause and effect, the example of the wind not affecting other rivers as it effects the Nile would be scientific.

Herodotus considers the theories of others and uses logic to disprove them, this is part of science. The observations presented in this text are scientific to the extent that in today's society, we can prove and disprove what has been recorded. They are an attempt to order nature.

You have a good basis for both of the documents, but you need to explain more—explore these ideas to a greater extent.


Group : Group A: Morgan Heckman and Emma Kallaway

1.) Amos: Not Scientific

Answer:

Assumptions about nature:

One of the characteristics of greek scientific thinking they began to remove gods as the controlers of natural events. Not necessarily relevant to this document however… Clearly, in this passage we can see a great usage of the world Lord and the affects of a higher power on agriculture and war. The passage states, "I would send rain upon one city and send no rain upon another city; one field would be rained upon and the feild upon which it did not rain withered..." This passage also reflects unsciencfic process because no controls or futher experimental observations can be conducted.  You have a good start, but need to explain further what you mean.

2) Herodotus: Scientific

Answer:

Here the method of investigation goes beyond blind flowing a higher power. In contrast to the Amos text this text reflects a seperation from the gods as being provider of natural events. This passage reflects assumptions of natural processes are independent of the role of a god. Although no controled experiments are preformed the role of observation proves scientific in its thoughts and desire for further information. Does separation from the influence of the gods necessarily mean that a process is scientific?  Again, good start, but explain more.


Group : Kent, Drew, Molly, and Kaz

Group A

Of the two documents, the Hippocratic School is the more scientific. The conclusions made in the Hippocratic School appear to have been made after a period of observation, a tenet of our modern scientific method. In Amos, a polytheistic view of nature is taken, insofar as the natural disasters are caused by the wrath of a divine being. The Hippocratic school assumes that there is a link between illness and the properties of urine, but no link is ever truly proven, simply stated. Good observation. Both attempt to interpret natural events, but the difference is that the Hippocratic School interprets events after some observation.  Then again, are not events tied to divine intervention through observation of a cause and effect relationship due to a person’s actions?  Please try to explain more of your reasoning.


 

Group : Quinn Moticka, Renee Arias, Ashley Bower, Hannah Dischinger

Mr. Nicols Early Greek Texts

In the Omens text, the writers try to express that unexplained natural phemenona is followed by, but does not necessarily cause natural consequences. The Omens texts appear to be attempts at showing scientific logic. The Omens are based on observations, rather than simply explaining consequences through religion. The assumptions made are that certain natural events, like earthquakes and thunder, will most likely be followed by other events, like: "the king's land will revolt from him". The Greeks, however, appear to attempt to connect acts of nature with other events that might not necessarially be otherwise associated. The Omens documents cannot thoroughly be classified as science because they do not provide enough empirical evidence to prove the theories. However, the documents are more scientific than other ancient documents in that the theories attempt to disassociate themselves from religion in an attempt to describe nature. It is important to note that the Greeks include loosely constructed cause and effect data in their reports. Good explanation!

Herodotus:

The Herodotus text is more analytical than the Omens text. The text suggests that the Nile River operates independently of human action and divine intervention.  Good. The author even states his disbelief in the ability of priests for giving him information about nature. The author takes into account that, though coincidences in nature occur and may seem to be connected, they do not necessarily imply cause and effect: "One pretends that the Etestian winds cause the rise of the river..[but] it has often happened that [the winds] did not blow that the Nile [has not acted this same way]." Omens employs the theory of "post hoc, ergo propter hoc," whereas Heroduts refutes it.  He doesn’t necessarily refute it… Good start, explain more.


Group : Rachel S., Sarah E., Janey W. Jennifer P.

Between the two texts Amos and Hippocratic School, it seems that the Hippocratic School would be considered more scientific. The first text, Amos, consisted of more observations that attributed the natural phenomenons to the Lord, rather than testable, empirical data and a natural explanation. The authors of Amos have created a cause without evidence to support it. They have evidence…They have seen the repercussions of defying a God.  The matter at hand is are these theories testable and repeatable?  It lacks the data to connect the cause and effect. In the Hippocratic School text, the flow of observations and ideas is very logical and testable! as well as obvious signs of when there are diseases or if the urine is healthy. With the Hippocratic School, there are clear causal relationships between the causes and the symptoms of the illness.  Try to go more into depth with your explanation.  All documents show some sort of cause and effect relationship, but is that what necessarily distinguishes something as science?


Group : Sage Berg,Corbin Hiday, Luke Annlala-Kinne

Amos, we believe is not scientific, because it assumes that divine power controls natural events but assume causation between human actions and god's response without giving supporting evidence. It's anecdotal, and does not speak for what happens 99% of the time.

Hippocratic School, we believe is scientific, because it relies on empirical observations to draw its conclusions. At least we can assume, by the tone of the article that the author speaks after making repeated observations. However, anyone could have written this, so at their word it is science, but the author does not speak of proof.

The horescope is unscientific, because it makes assumptions based on untested and strains of thinking. It also assumes unproved divine forces are involved in your fate. Again, there is no testing. It will only seem like you have more money, because you spent so much on the holiday season the month before.

Good bringing up the idea of testability, but pleaseexplain more.


Group : Sammy Shaw

Part A

1. Amos- not scientific. biblical description about the Israelites regarding their inability to give into God when natural disasters and other various problems came upon them. there is not mention of "science", instead all the events mentioned are explained as being done by the divine.  

2. Hippocratic School- scientific. this passage describes different urine samples and whether or not of characteristics of the sample determine in a person is sick. it gives vivid explanation and produces an image of what kind of urine is deemed "free from danger" or "diseased". there is no mention of the divine and is purely based on human speculation.

In these, you recap what the document was talking about, but do not give a full explanation for whether or not they are scientific.  Go into more depth.

Part B

3. Omens- not scientific. this excerpt from various Mesopotamian sources explains that natural disasters are the product of human ill-doing. ex- when the king is sick it is because he has slept with another man's wife.

4. Herodotus- scientific. this passage concerns the nile river and inquires about the change in water levels. it mentions three explanations for this phenonemon give by the Greeks- all three do not mention the gods or divine intervention.

1. The first two passages (Amos and Omens) make assumptions that natural events, whether disasterous or not, are the cause of divine intervention. They assume that natural disasters such as famine, flood, thunder, earthquakes, and illness are the products of human ill-doing. An example of this can be found in Omens text which states that "if his (the king's) illness keeps attaacking him in the middle of the night, he has had sexual intercourse with another man's wife". It is thus using human vices as an explanation for bad things happening. In contrast to this, the latter passages of Herodotus and the Hippocratic school provide a more scientific explanation for natural phenomenon. An example of this can be found in the quote from the early Greek cosmotologist Herodotus when he states three different reasons provided by the Greeks as to why the Nile river experiences increasing changes in water level. These reasons are characterized by logic and human observation instead of being tied to religion. What makes the latter documents science.  We can see what you believe makes something science, but justify your opinions!

2. The last two documents are far more scientific than the first two provided, but still lack scientific reasoning and experimentation to fully answer the questions at hand. They are still far more reliable and logical because they manage to exclude any mention of the divine and instead base their arguments on human reasoning. But is it?

3. The role of observation is present in all of these documents, but it is more credible in the last two because their observation lacks any religious affiliation. However, all four cases lack the testing of a hypotheses and their theories are void of any real experimentation.

You seem to have a basic understanding of what the documents are discussing, but you do not provide much explanation outside of whether or not the document has religious affiliation for your reasoning.  Please try to explain more.


Group : Tanner Semerad and Andrew Kendoll

1.The assumptions that are made are that things that occur in nature happen as a result of what people did. It also assumes that all things have to happen for a reason.

2.They may be classified as science to the extent that they observe natural phenomena and believe they can predict rational outcomes. Good start.

3. The role of a scientific model in these texts is to observe natural phenomena and draw conclusions without testing them.

4. The statement "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is a scientific fallacy because it is impossible to test if a significant event would have happened without the so-called omen.

Which text are you referring to here?  Way too general.  Needs more depth and detail about the documents. 


Group : Warren, Daniel, Katy, Lindsay

1. In "Omens" it is assumed that there is validity in portents. A causal relationship is assumed to exist between events which have no such directly observable relationship, but are similarly located in time. An example would be that thunder is believed to be an indicator for the market.  Not necessarily so… The way you make it seem is if directly implies instantaneously.  You could clear up your argument by explaining a little more…

2. The two documents display differing degrees of scientific process. In "Omens," causilty is primarily decribed by proximity and indication, while in Herodotus's writing, he attemps to describe direct causes. One event doesn't mysteriously cause another to 'pop up'. Good start, but again, need more explanation.  Clarify your use of “direct.”

3.

4. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is heavily visible in the former, but not so much the latter.


Group : hem

nicols is the god of hems Best response yet!